Religion and orthodox icons in Romanian schools
After the fall of the Communist regime the Romanian society was invaded by religion, among other thing the schools were filled with icons and children forced to take religion classes (almost exclusively Christian Orthodoxy).
Fast forward these days (sorry, link in Romanian): a school teacher complains about displaying religious symbols in schools, considering it a form of discrimination, the National Council Against Discrimination agree and ban those symbols, a civic association make a challenge, the Appeal Court stay with the original decision and now the Education and Culture Ministry announce they will attack the decision to the High Court of Justice.
From the reactions of people around, I see a lot of Christians defending the religion in schools, which is what I expect, knowing the demographics, as illustrated in this map (from Wikimedia Commons):
Yeah, Romania is absolutely the worst in Europe.
I have my theory about how those the facts illustrated in this map explain a lot about the current state of the country: via the general stupidity of the people, the lack of culture, wrong moral values and so on - all of them are the cause of the bad things in economy, politics and society.
Posts
What do "wrong moral values" have incommon with the believe in God?
ReplyDeleteI was glad to see such a high rate.
So why do you say everybody who believes is stupid...
Do you have any better to offer?
Ok, so there was a time when religions where forbidden and everything was great "apparently", and then because of the fall of this "perfect" system, religion took over. And every possible problem your country may face is related to it.
ReplyDeleteSorry i don't buy it.
There is no connection whatsoever. Before 1990 expressing religious beliefs was forbidden, was Romania any better? By the way, Ireland is rather dark blue on that map and it has almost the largest GDP per capita in Europe.
ReplyDeleteWhat that map actually shows is that catolic and ortodox christians together with muslims still have strong religious beliefs, while the people living in former protestant coutries do not (this is true in Europe, not in US).
anonymous: wrong moral values, they believe in fairy tales instead of accepting reality. And what a bunch of hypocrites are the Christians I know...
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, indeed, I say the huge majority of believers are stupid. I have something better to offer: free will, free choice and trust in your own power.
fernando: no, the communist regime was far from perfect, it was in fact evil. But it at least maintained the sepparation of the religion and the state.
bogdan: in my mind the connection is the stupidity of the people, as I already said.
And your Ireland example is interesting, as it used to be one of the poorest countries in the Europe, with the huge economic growth being a recent development: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland
Oh, I forgot to add in my previous reply: this Christian reaction to my post is exactly what I expected.
ReplyDeletethat's the funny thing i don't believe in god.
ReplyDeleteSo i do believe in the separation of the state and the church , but i don't like when people following an ideology or religion pretend that those who think different are to be blamed for everything.
For example it seems that you think it's unlikely of impossible that someone who disagrees with your post is an atheist. I just think you are exagerating, a lot.
P.D: I'm sorry, my english is far from perfect
Sure, I exaggerate a bit to make my point clearer. Rhetorics...
ReplyDeleteNick, we know about Romania vs. Europe, but when have you last checked the brainwashed United States with regards to the most idiotic way of believing in something called God?
ReplyDeleteHere's a sample of the brainwashed America - praising God for being a "happy" double amputee:
on Google Video.
The human being is not prone to tolerate the alterity (otherness). The human being is not democratical by design. The human being likes torture. The human being is so idiot to believe that a single word (God) is the answer to the questions he's not even being able to imagine (because Joe Sixpack has not many more synapses than a chimp).
But back to our country. If it's not for the lack of education, why is that they (I am from Mars) want a single Godfather Basescu to fix all the problems? Is it a Stalin, Putin, Mao, Ceausescu that they want? Democracy is never made by a single person!
Now ask your very Christian intelligentsia why they want a fully-Presidential republic, and wait to see a new Putin, this time a Romanian Putin.
Noroc bun!
By the way, thanks for the work you do.
ReplyDeleteI'm a fedora user and i really appreciate what you do. So thanks!
béranger, yeah, I know about the religious brainwash in the US, but I think our goal is to go towards EU, not US...
ReplyDeleteI think the huge percentage of God-believers is partly because the Romanian Orthodoxy is a very relax religion: people believe in God but they don't go tho the church, they steal, beat their wives being in a drunk state, take bribes and so on (in a word: hypocrisy, but this should be true tor the believers everywhere).
I am somewhat a kind of supporter of president Basescu, but not not a strong one (for example I disagree with his foreign policy) and I don't want a fully-Presidential republic, but I agree about the people being stupid and wanting a father figure, benevolent dictator - this is part of our history and culture (Stefan cel Mare, Cuza, Antonescu etc) and those are directly influenced by the Orthodoxy.
Well, I am not that sure that bigotry & hypocrisy are an Orthodox specificity.
ReplyDeleteTake some Catholic nations: the French love to have mistresses, the Spaniards love the cruel corridas, the Polish like vodka, etc.
Divorce was banned in various Catholic countries long time after WWII: until 1970 in Italy, until 1977 in Brazil, until 1997 in Ireland (where it's still difficult to divorce), etc.
As for the abortion...
This IS bigotry!
Back to Romania, it's worth noting that albeit the US is a very religious nation, the public schools are really lay schools (maybe for not offending the religions that can't be represented there). In the neutral French republic, the public schools are absolutely laique.
Romanian are idiots (remember, I am from Mars), but Greeks are just about the same (yes, they can have icons in the public schools).
And Romanians and Greeks have a lot of things in common regarding culture and religion, which somewhat may support my point.
ReplyDeleteI have a gift for you: properly-labelled Bible.
ReplyDeletenice gift, thanks!
ReplyDeleteOne more: Science vs. Faith.
ReplyDeleteAh, I wish I had the idea first, make the diagrams myself and publish them as SVGs as a shameless Inkscape advertisement...
ReplyDeletePlease, use the scientific method to prove that God doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteRui, that would be so easy... starting with the lack of measurable facts.
ReplyDeleteBut you fail my point: I have the right to believe in anything I want or to believe in nothing, and nobody should be allowed to force his beliefs on me (which is the case with icons and religion lessons in schools).
Why should I prove that something does not exist? It's up to the religious people to prove that "God" exists!
ReplyDeleteImagine I say: "there are pink camels on a planet 50,000 light-years from us". Shouldn't I prove that they exist in the first place? Or should I build a religion around this statements, claiming that no one can prove the pink camels are not there?
But I don't care on why people need a God. I am just amazed on how are they satisfied with their God, no matter IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING! Oh, what a wonderful Universe, how was it made? It must have been an intelligent design and a Designer!
OK, but oh, how intelligent the Designer was! (albeit inconsistent and unfair) How could that (It) have happened?
Declaring a God (you know, #define God TRUE) does not answer to any question, it only raises more questions!
I occasionally ask myself how can so many software developers know how logical statements work, yet believe in God. (Maybe this is why the linux kernel has bugs :-))
The lack of measurable facts doesn't prove anything. You should have born in the time of Jesus Christ. Then you had signs.
ReplyDeleteAbout the lessons, how can you choose
about religion if you haven't learned before? After learning, you can have really freedom of choice.
Béranger wrote:
ReplyDeleteI occasionally ask myself how can so
many software developers know how logical
statements work, yet believe in God.
Yeah, I have my moments when I ask myself this too... but I think I got an answer good enough: software developers are people too, we have busy lives and a lot of geeky thing to do - fix computers, download porn, class advance in some RPG and sometime is just time saving to leave thinks in the blackbox.
Oh, and don't overestimate the software developers, the majority is in for the money and there is need and place for all kind of programmers, from geniuses to cheap labor.
Rui wrote:
ReplyDelete> About the lessons, how can you choose
> about religion if you haven't learned
> before? After learning, you can have
> really freedom of choice.
This is incorrect, because:
- in religion classes kids learn only a point of view, that of the "official" religion
- kids have fresh minds and are naive, they are easy to be indoctrinated, for they is hard to distinguish fairy tales (Santa Claus, Jesus Christ) and reality.
So after being brainwashed in school is already to late.
And think about this: a kid learn in school about a religion, no matter what. His parent disagree with that teaching, he can't tell his kid the teacher are wrong because that may make the kid lose respect for all teachers.
Also, if the parent ask at the school for his kid to be exempted from that class, the kid will be treated as a pariah by its classmates.
PS: I had my own portion long ago of religion teachings from my grand-mother (back then when religion was not allowed in schools) and bible reading, those by my free choice.
People should learn about religion in high school (grades 9-12) only, and should this be for real educational (== objective knowledge) purposes, they should learn about:
ReplyDelete* all the major Christian denominations (at least Catholicism; Orthodoxy; Protestantism as Lutheranism, Calvinism and Anglicanism; but basic info on Baptism; Methodism; Evangelicalism; Unitarianism; Pentecostalism too)
* Judaism
* Islam (Sunni and Shia)
* Hinduism
* Buddhism
* Shintoism
* other important religions in use in the respective country
This should be taught objectively, as when you tell about history, and this should be told to people when they're aware of Logics and Philosophy.
Religion is a plage, disease that must to disapier.
ReplyDeleteIf you had some reading on your own on the Bible, you shouldn't interpert it alone, my advice is to ask any questions in this forum: forum.catholic.org
ReplyDeleteBut don't compare Santa Claus to Jesus Christ. Many early christians died on the hand of the Romans. They did know for what they died, not for fairy tales. This ones know better what happened in that time than us.
Rui wrote:
ReplyDelete> If you had some reading on your own
> on the Bible, you shouldn't interpert
> it alone, my advice is to ask any
> questions in this forum:
> forum.catholic.org
No Rui, that would be the worst place to ask questions because the source is biased.
To get fair answers you have either to ask an unbiased source (if such thing exist) or to ask both sides and make your own informed decision.
Oh, another proof of you not being impartial: why should I ask in a Catholic forum? is this better than an Orthodox one (the local wing of Christianity around here) or a Protestant one?
Or maybe should I ask in a Jewish or Muslim forum, as both value the Old Testament as a holy book...
> But don't compare Santa Claus to Jesus
> Christ
Why not? I have the same level of proof for both
> Many early christians died on the hand
> of the Romans.
And many non-Christians died on the Christians hand in the name of Jesus and religion...
> They did know for what they died, not
> for fairy tales. This ones know better
> what happened in that time than us.
This is one thing I can't be sure of at all...
Updates:
ReplyDeletehttp://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/25/1937217
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/
Wow, so much intolerance towards the Christians. Do I hear the pot calling the kettle black?
ReplyDeleteYour misconception of logic is making Einstein out to be stupid.
ReplyDeleteIt takes more to believe in God than not to believe. It's not the brave who can go without God. It's the brave who walk with Him.
You must not blaspheme His Name.
Nature has order. If there was noone tending to it, would there be order? Why don't you write a program that evolves into something better all the time. That should be quite simple compared to evoltion happening all by itself.
Nicu, I've grown up in God fearing family. At times I wondered.... what if God does not exsist?
ReplyDeleteEvery time I found proof that God does indeed exist. Here is my most recent example:
We live on a farm and get our water from rain on the roof. Ons Saturday morning I went to check the water tanks and found that we have almost run our of water. It's the middle of the winter and it hasn't rained for some time.
I walked back into the house, closed my eyes and said:"God, if it's your will, send us rain". Soon after it started raining.
Now you may refer to this as luck or coincedence, but I have experienced it too many times. There is really a God and he really looks after us.
If you don't believe in God, then please let those who do believe be. Through your blog you are slandering the Name of my God. Remove this blog now.
Jacobus said...
ReplyDelete>Your misconception of logic is
>making Einstein out to be stupid.
Why so? Because he had religious beliefs? One can be a genius in a field and not in another.
> It takes more to believe in God
> than not to believe. It's not the
> brave who can go without God. It's
> the brave who walk with Him.
I argue the opposite: believing in a deity is the easy path, you take some answers from granted instead of using your own mind.
And ultimately, religion is our way of trying to accept our mortality by denying it (most religions promise eternal life).
>You must not blaspheme His Name.
Why?
> Nature has order. If there was noone
> tending to it, would there be order?
The natural tendency is not to go from order to disorder? (increase of entropy, life, which is order is followed by death, which is disorder)
> Why don't you write a program that
> evolves into something better all
> the time. That should be quite simple
> compared to evoltion happening all by
> itself.
Is not that the future of software? All the Sci-Fi books and movies tell us so...
Jacobus said...
ReplyDelete> Nicu, I've grown up in God fearing
> family. At times I wondered.... what
> if God does not exsist?
>
> Every time I found proof that God
> does indeed exist. Here is my most
> recent example:
>
> I walked back into the house, closed
> my eyes and said:"God, if it's your
> will, send us rain". Soon after it
> started raining.
For any such anecdote, there are much more anecdotes showing the contrary.
> Now you may refer to this as luck or
> coincedence, but I have experienced
> it too many times. There is really
> a God and he really looks after us.
So you are a saint or something?
This is contrary to the religious doctrine: you should believe without asking for a proof, otherwise you are not a true believer (which doctrine is made on purpose, as the proof can't be given by an non-existent divinity).
> If you don't believe in God, then
> please let those who do believe be.
And how I don't let you believe in any god? I have not forced you to come to this blog, read it or even post a reply.
As you are free to claim your religious beliefs, I am equally so. As long as we don't force our opinions to each other (and back to the main idea of my blog post, icons and religion classes in public schools is forcing religious beliefs).
> Through your blog you are slandering
> the Name of my God. Remove this blog
> now.
You crossed the line here. You have no right to ask me to censor my free speech.
I am open and accept critics and opposing opinions from my readers, I expect from them to be equally open.
Stick to something you know. You can tell us what it is like to be a non-believer, and we can tell you what it is like to be a believer. Don't tell God fearing people what the rules of our religion is.
ReplyDeleteFreedom of speech does not mean you can go about in an offensive manner - One should always practice contraint.
Your blog is one sided and makes a mockery of Christian and most other religions. It is blasphemous and offensive. It becomes clear that you have a self-centered lookout on life, and that you are not open for reason. Your should take critisism constructively and take life more seriously.
Jacobus said...
ReplyDelete> Stick to something you know. You can
I believe this is what I do.
> tell us what it is like to be a
> non-believer, and we can tell you
> what it is like to be a believer.
Thanks for the offer, but I am surrounded by religious people, so I have whom to ask if I feel the need.
> Don't tell God fearing people what
> the rules of our religion is.
Look, religion classes in schools is something people forces others to do, me ranting about whatever I want in my personal blog is not forcing you to read it or to change your beliefs.
You are the one trying to tell me what to think and what to write on my blog.
> Freedom of speech does not mean you
> can go about in an offensive manner
> - One should always practice contraint.
Naturally, the definition of "offensive" is subjective, each of us will understand offensiveness to his own scale, but my rants are not directed to you and I don't think they are offensive.
If you think I promote hate speech, feel free to report to whatever authorities you think necessary, even to the blogging service I use, I am confident I don't to anything wrong.
> Your blog is one sided and makes a
> mockery of Christian and most other
This is the definition of a personal blog, to be one sided and show his owner view of the world.
And how about your intolerance of not permitting any negative opinion about your religion?
If I would be as one sided as you claim, I could close the comments on this blog or delete the comments I don't like (I have the felling this what you would do on your blog).
> religions. It is blasphemous and
> offensive. It becomes clear that
As I said above, what is offensive and blasphemous is relative.
I may find offensive the religious pressure.
> you have a self-centered lookout
> on life, and that you are not open
> for reason. Your should take
And you are open for reason? In all your honesty, is there any argument which would make you change your religion?
> critisism constructively and take
> life more seriously.
Well, if you are right, I will spend my entire afterlife in Hell, paying for all my blasphemies. Why don't you leave me support the consequences of my actions?
And if any true Christian will read my blog, it is like Satan is testing his faith, he will resist the temptation and go to Heaven. Otherwise, he is not a true believer and does not deserve salvation...
Oh, and feel free to open your own blog and spread your gospel there. I promise I won't go there and flame you.
I aggree that no man should force his religion down on another. So we aggree on that. I do however feel that schools with a religious undertone should be allowed to practice their religion, but people should not be forced to study there.
ReplyDeleteI think it is ralely the religious entities who are forcing religion down. It may be political or driven for other reasons...?
Let's leave it at that for now ;-)
Jacobus said...
ReplyDelete> I aggree that no man should force his
> religion down on another. So we aggree
> on that. I do however feel that schools
> with a religious undertone should be
> allowed to practice their religion,
> but people should not be forced to
> study there.
Did you read my original post? I complained about public schools, those funded with my money...
> I think it is ralely the religious
> entities who are forcing religion
> down. It may be political or driven
> for other reasons...?
As shown in the graph I posted in the article, this is a country with a huge majority of Christians, so of course the politicians do anything to please their voters.
Also is was (ans still is) a trend in the after-communist world: show how religious you are to show how anti-communist you are.
Jacobus: "Remove this blog now. "
ReplyDeleteAsk God to do this.
Ha-ha anonymous, this is a good one, like in the old paradox of omnipotence "Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it?"
ReplyDeleteMdâh, here you have one article on "Why are geeks often atheist?": http://m4th.com/Articles/Why...
ReplyDeleteComments here: http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/emerging...
Interesting read, it can (and did) generate a lot of discuss in comments.
ReplyDeleteBut I think I like better the discuss in the "official" thread. (but both threads are LONG, a lot of passion...)
"I walked back into the house, closed my eyes and said:'God, if it's your will, send us rain'. Soon after it started raining.
ReplyDelete"Now you may refer to this as luck or coincedence, but I have experienced it too many times. There is really a God and he really looks after us."
The Jews who walked into the gas chambers, praying for their lives, would beg to differ.
The babies who have been killed during tribal strife in Somalia and Darfour would beg to differ.
In the face of tens of millions of people who died at the hands of evil as they prayed to God to save them, how is the fact that you weren't inconvenienced by a water shortage proof of a caring God?
I'm not saying that God doesn't exist or doesn't care. I'm just saying that your evidence for those concepts doesn't stand up.
"If you don't believe in God, then please let those who do believe be."
God's biggest gift to man... Free will. If you didn't want your beliefs challenged, you had the freedom not to read Nicu's blog.
"Remove this blog now."
As what may be the only American in this discussion, let me say something very American in response. "Fuck you and the horse you rode in on."
Or I'll say something very French and quote Voltaire: "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Just as you have the right to defend God, Nicu has the right to attack Him. And if God can make it rain, I think He is perfectly capable of defending Himself in this discussion. He doesn't need a reactionary dumbass like you trying to silence those who have issues with religion.
And remember, Nicu didn't start out criticizing God. Nicu started out criticizing religion, state sponsored religion, and the people who back state sponsored religion. And as a member of his society who has to live in it, he has every right to criticize those things he thinks are wrong with it.
That's what democracy is all about. Welcome to the 21st century.
I think some people are so rude and don't respect peoples opinions and beliefs. Shame on you guys
ReplyDeleteI was an atheist for the first 27 years of my life. And now I am a cristian-catholic. I believe in God. I know, he exists. But it has to be personal experience of every man. Sorry for my english :O)
ReplyDeleteAnd how is this relevant to our discussion?
ReplyDeletehi
ReplyDelete