Tom's Gnome
The other day I had some intense graphic work, paying a lot of attention in Inkscape to drawing details, so a bit of relax was much needed, then I noticed a message posted to the Fedora marketing mailing list about some yet another distro review, I usually don't read those but as I said above, was tired, needed some light activity already had the daily 9GAG dose, so away with the reading :)
It was a Fedora 16 and GNOME Shell "test and review" on Tom's Hardware. Normally I would stop here, but the first paragraph (in bold) caught my attention (and, remember, I was in need for some light activity):
"Ubuntu and Mint don't want it; Linus called it an “unholy mess.” While most other distros are passing up or postponing GNOME Shell, Fedora is full steam ahead. Does Red Hat know something the rest of us don't? Or is GNOME 3 really as bad as everyone says?"
OK, so it is a piece about Fedora and GNOME Shell, as seen from the eyes of someone in the Ubuntu camp (according to the author, they sometime cover Ubuntu, no other distro so far, but want to expand the area of coverage). With this bias in mind, I can proceed to reading, but read it as you "read" those articles on hardware review websites: the first page, jump over the million of "tests" on separate pages, made for ads impressions, straight to the conclusion were I see this gem (with which I agree wholeheartedly:
"The only thing really wrong with Fedora 16 is the choice of GNOME 3 as its default desktop environment. This distribution is for the people who make Linux, not for the Win/Mac converts. GNOME Shell is most obviously intended for the uninitiated masses, not the developers. Putting aside any gripes we may have with it, from it's very inception, GNOME 3 simply wasn't the right fit for Fedora."
Then it goes on wipping the floor with the desktop, and rightfully so. Then comes the solutions part, where I find myself in disagreement, as the author talk about a monster resulting from the combination of GNOME Shell and Unity, complete with mockups.
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« GNOME Shell is most obviously intended for the uninitiated masses, not the developers. »
ReplyDeleteI'm a developer, and I'm (very) happy with GNOME Shell.
Really, Nicu, I think you already made your point about GNOME Shell. We all know you don't like it and you think everyone also don't.
"Everyone" is a strong word, but plenty of articles on the web, magazines, blogs, g+ and such show many don't.
DeleteSo question, what would improve gnome3 from your perspective?
ReplyDeletenothing, it is flawed by design :D
DeleteI too have seen your blog posts floating around regularly, as you seem to make it a point to tag them for planets and such. And, it gets kinda old pointing out regularly your distaste for gnome-shell. Being a linux user of 8-ish years, I am one who grew to love gnome-3, after not using gnome since early 2.x days. I'm thrilled about the change.
ReplyDeleteEndless negativity certainly gets old.
Then maybe we should be constructive, and talk about the fundamental assumptions gnome 3 is based upon. The most important assumption is, according to one of the designers, that the wimp era is over and we're going towards the touch era if not already there: https://afaikblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/welcome-to-the-post-wimp-era/. But these assumtions are false, because touch technology and a 12+ inch screen just don't go together, making the way the os should interact with the user totally different. Plus, the two most used mobile operating systems are not to be found on a desktop. So why does gnome move towards touch and mobile devices? The whole idea that a desktop os should move towards smart devices is based on nothing (his examples of windows, os x, palm etc. are only refered to because he wants to make a point, not because they are true.) It's like going with the flow, but not knowing you're in the wrong river (well, lousy comparison, but the point is clear.)So I understand people happy with gnome are fed up with the bashing, but the underlying idea of gnome 3, like stated by allan day, is what worries me (not that much anymore since i moved back to kde).
ReplyDeletepeople tried to be constructive and talked about those issues even *before* GNOME 3 was released, but the developers just refused to listen, that's why they deserve such bashing in the real market and from real usage
DeleteAs a long-time Gnome-2 user I also love it, so what?
ReplyDeletealso a long time linux user here, also like gnome 3.
ReplyDeleteYeap, me too. Old hat. Love Gnome 3. Migrated to Fedora so I could get pure gnome 3.
ReplyDeleteI'm a veteran from ancient battles between command line interfaces against primitive black and white windows, and used macintosh, windows and linux for all THEIR lives... and I have to agree with Tom. Being a long time Fedora fan, I have resigned myself to use GNOME in fallback mode, until Fedora/GNOME fix this mess or until I find the time to move to MINT. I've witness people swear Macintosh "Docs" (research that) was the greatest piece of software since System 1, and others swear by Windows 3, Palm OS or the Newton ¿where are they now?.
ReplyDeleteThe arrogant developers at GNOME really don't get it: trying to impose an "app-centric" interface while the underlining paradigm is still so much file-centric is dumb. I guess it is fashionable to replicate android or iOS looks, but that mockery doesn't really make a user interface. What works in those devices, with limited screen real-estate, doesn't in the desktop. Besides, there is much more to it than cool swipes and big icons. The guys at GNOME should really dust off their copies of "Apple Human Interface Guidelines" and read it again (¿did they ever?). Usability is the hole purpose of changing the interface, otherwise, don't bother.
As Tom, I believe GNOME 3 might be cool for my mother, she is mono-tasking and hates getting distracted, but if you interact with as little as two or three different applications in a work day, say write a document, research the web and listen to music, I guess we are in the wrong place.
soon i will give Mint a try and report about my experience
DeleteThe Mint namedrop in that article is really intriquing. Because at the end of the day Mint (phantom popularity or not) is actually a rejection of Unity primarily.
DeleteThe article writer's name dropping of Mint really fractures the overall narrative of Unity as the better direction forward. No matter what your feelings about any of the technologies..its just a badly constructed article, seemingly written to justify the mockups at the end.
Nicu have you tried using gnome-panel instead of a gnome-shell driven F16/F17 yet. The gtk3 based gnome-panel is a little different but it does give you access to applets like the gnome2 panel...just different keybindings to get access. Is anyone in Fedora working on rolling up a DE offering similar to U's Gnome Classic using the gnome3-panel? You might not have to move to Mint to get something you can live with as a user and is still maintained.
-jef
I don't know about the gtk3 panel, I know someone packaged Cinnamon for Fedora and was thinking to try that on a laptop I have here up for a fresh install.
Delete"""Yeap, me too. Old hat. Love Gnome 3. Migrated to Fedora so I could get pure gnome 3"""
ReplyDeleteDitto. Used Fedora as my main desktop for more then just Gnome 3, but Gnome 3 was one of reasons.
Now that Debian stable has Gnome 3.2 I have gone back to using that for my cheap new laptop. Besides the fact that libpower is killing gnome-settiongs-daemon when I go to battery mode it's pretty good.
I guess I am just different, because last night I was doing just what was described above.. chromium open to documentation, a terminal open next to it with a tmux+ssh out to a dozen machines, and listening to podcasts and music on the same time. Not only that I had a torrent downloading, had Firefox open in a another desktop because it supports kerberos rather easily, and a few other things open. Didn't seem that big of a deal.
so you make a minimal use of the desktop environment and LXDE would be equally fit for your usage pattern. how's that an pro-Shell argument?
DeleteI've been a super user going on 15 years now and I think Gnome 3 is great. I did have to customize a few things to fit my preference but overall I think Fedora and Gnome 3 are on the right path.
ReplyDeletethen you will probably thrilled to see the evolution in Fedora market share among Linux distros :)
DeleteIf Linus called GNOME 3 a unholy mess and despite that keeps on using it, imagine what he thinks of the alternatives. ;)
ReplyDelete"...In short, blaming those and other "head up the arse" behaviors in GNOME 3, Torvalds has switched to Xfce, he said: 'I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really.'..."
Deletehttp://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/73026.html
indeed, Linus moved to Xfce and he is right: is a step down from GNOME 2, but a step up from GNOME 3
DeleteAnd then he kept on using 3.2 anyway(?) https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/WTLyn7dqYoR
ReplyDeleteBut anyway, what a kernel maintainer uses for his day to day work is really not that interesting.
Reading the reivew it's clear that Fedora in itself has quite a few issues in itself, regardless on what the GNOME part of the stack decides to do. Are these fixable? Maybe.
is he using it on a daily basis or just checking from time to time? anyway 'is starting to look almost usable' is NOT a compliment :)
Deleteand he's also totally right about the attitude of GNOME developers: 'Or would that be too close to "Ok, we admit we were wong" and thus not politically acceptable?'