03 March 2011

[p]review: Fedora 15 + GNOME 3.0, a skippable release

So now that the Alpha release for Fedora 15 has been declared gold, all the features are in, only polish and bug fixing are to be applied until final, is the time for previews are reviews, it was also the time for me to look at the new default desktop and understand what is coming. The executive summary of my review is: from a desktop point of view, this is a release to skip, and I am not talking about the Alpha, but about F15 altogether.

As you can see from the first look, the desktop is very bare, one single panel at the top, no icons, no files, no applets, no widgets, no nothing. And the panel and its widgets are dark, Windows and OS X style.

gnome shell


What I tested here is a very fresh version: GNOME 2.91.6 from Fedora 15 Alpha RC2:
gnome shell


Playing with the Desktop Live image, our default download there is very little to do other than getting a feel of the desktop, practically there is no app to use, which is a shame and a disservice to fedora... the ISO is 567MB for i686, respectively 568MB for x86_64, with plenty of room left available for a few useful goodies, that would make it an useful tool.
gnome shell


As with the apps is very little to talk about (at least we have in a beta of Firefox 4), let's move back to the desktop feel: for me not having a second panel with an open windows list so no quick application switch is possible turns into a huge productivity killer. No icons on the desktop means a big paradigm switch and very slow access to my files and to the general file system and no applets on the panel means little usefulness of my desktop - for example what good is Gnote now if I don't have access to my notes with 2 click any more?

And our friends from the Desktop Team succeeded to make it feel "Fedora" as little as they could, I am not talking now about the striped background that was pushed kindly asked for, I talk about a non-blue icon set in the file manager, not-blue window titles an widgets (funny, see how the scroll bar is still blue in Firefox but not in Nautilus?), the dark theme... all those break a tradition since before Fedora was Fedora, a decision made behind closed doors by a very small group of people.
gnome shell


I didn't need more than 5 minutes to understand this is not for me, the developers made GNOME 3.0 worse from my usability point of view than Xfce and even than LXDE, so the next step was to try the backup option, the classic panel was supposed to be available as a fallback option and providing a "classic" style of work. Unfortunately, the settings are now re-organized in an awkward control panel where is no option to switch modes.
gnome shell


Unable to find a switch, the first idea was to reboot, degrade the video settings, so hardware acceleration isn't available and the panel kicks in automatically. This was an opportunity to learn I can't reboot my PC, only shut it down or suspend... hello! this is a desktop, not a portable! And also learned I don't have handy access (where the panel applets are gone?) to safely umount the USB stick where I saved my screenshots.
gnome shell


So reboot and degrade the video mode.
grub


And surprise! As I expected, the panel is not the classic feel promised to people complaining about a paradigm shift, but is a half-assed effort to provide... something. It is half shell and half panel.
gnome panel


There is a window list, there are some applets, you can put launchers on the panel, the desktop is empty, with no files or launchers, the colors are an uneven mix of light and dark, the window widgets are completely different... at least you can use Gnote and switch apps.
gnome panel


So not even the "classic" mode is not good for me, time to end the review, an opportunity to notice neither here I have easy access to safely umount the USB stick where I saved the screenshots, there are some applets available, but only very few.
gnome panel


Conclusions:
  • for me, GNOME Shell as it will be available in Fedora 15 is not an option, my advice is if you can live with KDE, Xfce or LXDE instead, use one of those, they are better desktops. If not, do like me: stay with GNOME 2.32, it is a so better desktop compared with those other options;
  • if you hope the Shell problems will be fixed in the couple of months until final, have a touch of reality: this is Alpha, is feature complete, only small bugfixes will get in forward, the problems outlined above are intentional decisions made from a flawed design, they won't be fixed this release cycle
  • my faith with GNOME in Fedora is very low, the designers and developers refuse to listen, labelling all the non-enthusiastic feedback as "stop energy". Unity, the GNOME fork driven by Canonical does not look better either, so I can't think about a positive outcome, even if a massive user backslash will happen, the people in charge are so arrogant, they will not acknowledge their mistakes.

105 comments:

  1. That really, really sucks. I hope 3.2 brings back some stuff. Or maybe most people will love it and those who don't will go to other DEs.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I was about to download F15 beta, n after reading ur review, I think it would be waste of time and bandwidth.

    If Gnome3 goes like this, then I have to say, XFCE will be better choice for default Fedora desktop. Eventhough, KDE is much better n my fav choice too, but KDE is really too much resource hungry now a days, very bad for Netbook!

    ReplyDelete
  3. This is only your opinion, and I feel that your fear of change plays an important role.

    «[...] no icons, no files, no applets, no widgets [...]»
    Yes, anything that might distract or lose some space are moved to "Activities" overview.

    «[...] practically there is no app to use [...]»

    On this, I'm agree with you: Fedora lack of applications. Especially system-config-*. I hope they will be adapted to the new control center.

    «[...] for me not having a second panel with an open windows list so no quick application switch is possible turns into a huge productivity killer [...]»

    It's productivity killer, for you, because is a change. But if you look objectively: it is faster to recognize windows by their miniature than by only their icon and their 3 firts char of their window title.
    In this case, Gnome Shell is more productive.

    «[...] for example what good is Gnote now if I don't have access to my notes with 2 click any more [...]»

    Gnote can be an icon on the bottom panel.

    Note about panel-applets: you can create applets in Gnome-Shell, even more. In Gnome-Shell, you can write plugins and each plugin can change everythings in Gnome-Shell. And you have a tool for test plugins: alt-F2 and write "lg". ;)

    «[...] a decision made behind closed doors by a very small group of people. [...]»

    This decisions are do in Gnome 3 dev and design team. And for F15, Red Hat and some Fedora people want to have an OS the most "Gnome" as possible.

    But if you see the wallpaper, Fedora 15 as this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork/Development

    Note about the fallback mode: Yes, it need more work.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Well... I've learned to skip odd-numbered releases years ago anyway. They're too experimental for my taste. As for a desktop, I use Fluxbox. Let's just hope they don't start dumbing down other parts of the system, such as Yum or system-config-firewall. :P

    ReplyDelete
  5. @Felix: Gnome 3 is not dumbing down, it's just different.

    Peronaly, I have tested Gnome-Shell from the first version: I beggin, it was very very cheapness, but the redesign is very good. I use it now when F15 alpha can boot and for some features I prefer it to Gnome 2.XX. (Not for all, but all lack will be filled in 3.2.)

    ReplyDelete
  6. true all that Nicu, I made the switch to KDE a few weeks ago, and I have to say, I being a Gnome Fan (before Gnome 3 that is) I find KDE to be a really good option (at least in my case) Latest KDE SC version (4.6) is really awesome, So I would say, Get Fedora 15 with KDE which will have version 4.6 of the desktop environment by default :)

    ReplyDelete
  7. Well I saw some other reviews of GNOME 3 and some people like it, but my opinion is that it's going to be like KDE 4.0 at first for me KDE 3 was really a nice desktop when kde 4 came out it was unstable and very laggy, but when you see KDE 4.6 today it's nice and I may swtich to KDE if gnome 3 will not fit for me.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Since when are icons and applets distracting? Who sits and gazes at their desktop/applets instead of looking at the opened/active windows?

    And why is the lack of a taskbar more productive?

    All of this while not realizing the fact that the activities menu *fills* your entire desktop with so many icons that you cannot observer anything else; or it shrinks your windows and your desktops... Are this not way more 'counter productive' than a harmless list of icons or a menu that only takes 5% of your screen without making it impossible to read a manul(imagine you're trying to learn Gnome 3 by reading a guide and you cannot get past the first step because you cannot have an opened menu and a document reader next to it)/website/tracker/chat/use a webcam/watch a movie etc?

    Honest questions...

    ReplyDelete
  9. In the last update, the panel and the dash have been really improved (new workspace management, better favourite and apps support). I don't think Gnome 3.0 (and F15) will be such a disaster. The most annoying thing for me is the lack of a fast way of accessing my files... desktop icons aren't there anymore and Zeitgeist support is coming with GNOME 3.2!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Not worth the bandwidth to make a cheap coaster. The folks from Fedora should be worried about improving their slow and sometimes, command line only to fix, package management - not spending time providing users with an ugly, horrible user interface.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Could always switch to Ubuntu's Unity ;)

    ReplyDelete
  12. > "What I tested here is a very fresh version: GNOME 2.91.6 from Fedora 15 Alpha RC2:"

    The version I built a week ago from jhbuild includs quite a lot of changes from what you show here.

    Not that I'm implying that you will like it any better, you seem to have made your mind already.

    > "Unfortunately, the settings are now re-organized in an awkward control panel where is no option to switch modes."

    That means the control-center in F15 is not recent enough. I had the fallback option in my jhbuild built Gnome 3 for at least two weeks (it's in the "System Info" panel).

    Why aren't your versions new enough? We were in alpha freeze, so updates were blocked. If you keep F15 installed, you will probably get those updates very soon.

    ---

    It's an interesting comment that you make about unmounting USB keys. Those were the only icons I actually used on my desktop wallpaper, but very rarely, so I wasn't feeling like something was missing with the removal of those icons... until readong your article. :)

    I wonder what the designers have planned for this very important use case (unplugging a USB key improperly might mean data loss, so it seems to me that the unplugging functionality should be easily available).

    ---

    > "intentional decisions made from a flawed design"

    That's your opinion.

    I find Gnome-Shell (and generally Gnome 3) very elegant, and much more efficient than Gnome 2 as it considerably improved my workflow since I have started building it from jhbuild.

    ReplyDelete
  13. @korbe: You blindly repeat the RHDT guys argument about distraction, the icons and widgets plays an important role, we are in the days of multitasking, when more than one things happen at the same time on the PC. And I find it insulting to be treated like I have such a short attention span.

    @John: that is why I put in on an USB drive, not wasting any plastic on it.

    @bochecha: AFAIK RC2 is what was declared gold for Alpha

    ReplyDelete
  14. Yeah it's a piece of crap. Anybody know a good KDE distro?

    @korbe: *add insulting remark here*

    ReplyDelete
  15. @nicu:

    > "AFAIK RC2 is what was declared gold for Alpha"

    Exactly. That means that the Alpha iso will be this RC2, and then updates will start flowing again to the repositories.

    So in a few days (this might even be the case already) you should get updates that fix some of the points you mention (e.g manually select the fallback mode)

    ReplyDelete
  16. @sorin7486: i heard the Fedora KDE spin is quite good and close to the upstream.

    ReplyDelete
  17. You just cant handle change dude. No one likes change.. im sure you had problems when you first moved from Windows to Linux. (Assuming you did so) ... I know I did but I was in the flow of things after a little while. I now run only linux on all my boxes.. with Windows confined to VMs. May take a little time.. but you'll get use to it. You'll have to.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I moved from Windows to Linux/GNOME as my primary desktop with the release of Red Hat Linux 9, what held me back before that was the lack of applications and poor hardware support. Currently for me Windows is only a gaming platform at home, but I don't have time for games, and a compatibility thing at work, no place to get your job done.

    Change for the sake of change is stupid, change has to bring something better. I have no intention do adapt to GNOME 3, there are better alternatives, like Xfce... hell, even the evil Windows is now a better desktop than GNOME is turning to.

    ReplyDelete
  19. if the current state of technology is indication.. get read for full out minority report in the next few years. change isnt happening for the sake of change.. its happening because it will ultimately become a better ux. You've been just confined to a specific environment too long.. some people call the command line home.. others are lost without a mouse. Your kids will be like wtf is a mouse.

    ReplyDelete
  20. @Jay: Do you have any basis to claim this is better? An usability study? note that GNOME 3 design was based only on books and papers reading, not on actual user survey: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/References

    ReplyDelete
  21. But but but, the cabbal of self-appointed designers has achieved the gradient encrusted pinnacle of UX in their secret IRC channel hide-out. It even animates.

    It’s much simpler now and it matches all of their carefully crafted use cases.

    ReplyDelete
  22. @Jay:
    Except that for productive environments keyboard and mouse will always be there, I don't know you but I don't really care if my kids will use a mouse or not, maybe they wont, but as long as I'm a coder, I will need a keyboard, a mouse and a FAST way to switch between apps.
    The whole "it's the future" arguments is just plain silly, I know we now have netbooks,tablets, smartphones and stuff, but people who actually have work to do with their computers are using the same old keyboards, mouses (and DESKTOP COMPUTERS), and there is *not a better alternative yet* that justifies a whole change of paradigm on how they work on their computers.. hell if I had to code using a touchscreen I'd probably made a hole through it by now (and the same happens for designers and any workstation user) and if had to wait for a stupid animation each time I switch a window I'd probably throw my computer through the window, so any change that improves the "user experience" of a touchscreen user is just hindering the user experience of users that use their computers to actually get work done.
    So GNOME 3 has become just a toy to play with while using your netbook or tablet, and is not suitable for any kind of actual work.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Nico,
    you will feel even more excited when you'll find out that the newest release of Gnome 3 will skip Maximize and Minimize Buttons per default! Because... it looks better this way (official argumentation)! Wow! (sorry, can't insert links, so just google for "gnome3 maximize" or something)
    Don't know if which kind of smiley fits better? :) or :(
    Regards,
    Coschuetzer

    ReplyDelete
  24. I know about the removed buttons and after trying F15 Alpha I can say the buttons had very little use... you hit Minimize and the window disappear, instead of being minimized to some panel.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I've been a GNOME user for about as long as it has been around and I also made the switch to KDE a few weeks ago on my F14 laptop after I tested gnome-shell. I agree with pretty much all your points. For the last few years gnome has moved into we know what is best for you, just use it like we say and KDE is do what you want.

    ReplyDelete
  26. @ nicu « @Jay: Do you have any basis to claim this is better? An usability study? note that GNOME 3 design was based only on books and papers reading, not on actual user survey: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Design/References »

    It is more documented and close to a best UX than for gnome 2.XX.

    «@korbe: You blindly repeat the RHDT guys argument about distraction, the icons and widgets plays an important role, we are in the days of multitasking, when more than one things happen at the same time on the PC. And I find it insulting to be treated like I have such a short attention span.»

    No, realy no. When Gnome-Shell begin I realy don't like it and I was oposit to it. But now the design have change. The Activities overview add some reals improvements, the new notify system permit to be more productive. And these changes are based on real logic.

    I don't say "Gnome-Shell is perfect". It lack some thinkgs and User-menu had some error of conception (why have elements about system on User-menu?).

    But Gnome-Shell is not a crap.

    «I know about the removed buttons and after trying F15 Alpha I can say the buttons had very little use... you hit Minimize and the window disappear, instead of being minimized to some panel.»

    These two buttons are removed for different reasons. For maxmize: A button with a little square are not more explicit than a double-click in title bar. No? Gnome-Shell want to use a better feature here. Personaly, I have proposed to replace "Maximize window to space available in the desktop" by "Adapte window size to its content". And I haven't out this from a cap: I'm based to an analysis.

    For minimize, it's becaus "monimize to panel" are not adapted to Gnome-Shell. We could replace this by a "minimize to application icon in the dash", but it need animation and it's too late for Gnome 3.0.

    @sorin7486: Can you be polite, we did not keep the pigs together.

    @Juanfgs: Great troll. \o/

    ReplyDelete
  27. @korbe: dunno why blogger marked your comment as spam so i had to moderate it in.

    The documentation is based on talks, not evidence, is not hard evidence, only hearsay.

    Of course a button is more intuitive than clicking on a title bar... from what previous experience the user is supposed to click on it? But a button is a button, it is a distinct widget and has a role. If the square icon is not the best metaphor for it, that is a small implementation detail.

    The Shell not having the ability to show minimized application is a major flaw and an indicator it is not ready for prime time.

    I tested GNOME Shell a year ago and now, from my point of view it was useless then and is useless now.

    ReplyDelete
  28. @ nico

    « The Shell not having the ability to show minimized application is a major flaw and an indicator it is not ready for prime time. »

    I'm agree with you, gnome-shell lacks some things. But we can't wait more time. We have already 1 year of late.

    «I tested GNOME Shell a year ago and now, from my point of view it was useless then and is useless now.»

    I'm not agree with this. Before, Gnome-Shell was too constraining but it add some good idea. And now, the window management is more easy and fast than in Gnome 2.XX, idem for the new notify system.

    «Of course a button is more intuitive than clicking on a title bar... from what previous experience the user is supposed to click on it? But a button is a button, it is a distinct widget and has a role. If the square icon is not the best metaphor for it, that is a small implementation detail.»

    If you don't like the actualy choice, come support me on the mailing list: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-shell-list/2011-February/msg00241.html

    You are welcome. ^_^

    ReplyDelete
  29. I don't care how late it is, if it is not ready, it should not be but as the *default*, for this we have multiple spins.

    Me and the Red Hat Desktop Team guys (John Mccan and the others) had a series of disagreements, so I am sure they don't listen to me, my arguments would be wasted.

    ReplyDelete
  30. A good [p]review of this mess.
    Especially on the last point, I agree fully (and have agreed for years)

    ReplyDelete
  31. @nicu:

    «Me and the Red Hat Desktop Team guys (John Mccan and the others) had a series of disagreements, so I am sure they don't listen to me, my arguments would be wasted.»

    I reassure you, John Mccan don't listen me too. I have send an e-mail for have technicals information and he ignored me.

    But I do not think we can condemn a project because of one people. There are other great people, such as Allan Day, who are not opposed to different opinions and are very sympathetic.

    @Latest Anonimus:
    We got our quota of pro-KDE troll? This kind of propaganda campaign has already been used by Microsoft for Windows 7.

    ReplyDelete
  32. The inconsistencies between the themes of the apps is because some are gtk2 apps and others are gtk3 apps. Also this live image is for those who want to see how GNOME SHELL is shaping up so it doesn't make sense to bloat the download with unnecessary stuff.

    This article is therefore total bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Yeah, sounds like KDE 4.0 all over again, along with "the XXX developers know better" ... substitute Gnome or KDE for XXX.

    Want something easy and productive. Try KDE 3.5 on OpenSUSE 11.3 (or, shortly, 11,4). Blindingly fast. No bloat. Very familiar. See "Unreviewed How-To's" at OpenSuse forums:

    http://forums.opensuse.org/english/get-technical-help-here/how-faq-forums/unreviewed-how-faq/

    Maybe the concept can be used by a regular (but disenchanted) Fedora type to accomplish the same thing?

    ReplyDelete
  34. @korbe:

    Excuse me if I sound angry, it's just frustrating seeing how something that is part of my everyday work is made useless for my needs. I feel like the people behind GNOME just want to turn their backs on most of their userbase (because even nowadays linux userbase consists mostly of power users), I mean... I welcome changes that may improve the user experience for laptop/netbook/tablet users (as I own a laptop and a netbook) but I think doing so at the cost of hindering the desktop user experience it's just foolish and it may make GNOME lose most of their userbase just because they are trying to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place. The same goes to making things "dead brain" easy, yes I understand that some people don't know how to work with a computer, but there are some people who do, and these people is still the majority of the linux userbase.

    So don't label me as a troll as I love Gnome, for me it is (or was) the desktop more suitable for people who just want to get things done without getting in the way, now it has just become the opposite.

    ReplyDelete
  35. note: "it's just frustrating seeing how something that is part of my everyday work is made useless for my needs"

    I mean that is something I use for my everyday work.

    ReplyDelete
  36. I'm just a user of gnome and ubuntu.

    I love this post, and the reactions.

    I'm not against or for Gnome3. I've tried it, and thought it was OK. But I'm skeptical that it is a better way of running a desktop or terminal. Maybe of more use on a tablet or small screen.

    But the way this has been implemented really shows how the Gnome project lacks real leadership.

    Microsoft and Apple, and probably others, continuously re-invent their desktops and user experiences, but very few of these changes ever make it to a consumer end product. (Sort of like Future Show Cars at auto shows.)

    The developers at these companies know that 90% of their work is going to be shit-canned by management. This would normally be a massive blow to their collective egos. So the companies compensate their developers with lots of money.

    For a free software project to embark on the same revolutionary route (albeit with some support paid to some developers) is dangerous. People spilled a lot of sweat, out of love for this collective and mainly volunteer project and so have a lot emotionally invested in Gnome3. They are working for money, but for love.

    A project leader would have warned contributors that road to Gnome3 would be long, hard, with a chance of many lost battles and sore feelings, if not severe delay, or even failure. That is just what has to be expected when you are pulling everyone together trying to do a revolutionary thing. Disappointments should be expected.

    But obviously, the project management has no clear leadership to prepare its members, and so people are taking this very personally, when, as is inevitable, criticisms crop up.

    Astonishing. Not.

    Nicu is not stabbing you Gnomies through the heart. He's criticizing an Alpha piece of software, that, looked at objectively, needs to remain Alpha for some time more, and should not be unleashed on the current users of Gnome under the guise of some sort of upgrade.

    ReplyDelete
  37. gnome 3 is CRAP!! I loved gnome 2 on my ubuntu 9.10 desktops(ah the memories)....all the features I could ever want. Now I am just waiting for xfce4.8 to hit the repos, until then I am reduced to lxde to have a functioning desktop...I guess I would rather have native network browsing than moveable desktop icons :(

    I cant really comment on fedora since I tend to avoid the bleeding edge but Gnome 3 will be utter trash no matter what distro it is.....I WANT a computer not a desktop smartphone.

    ReplyDelete
  38. I never use Alpha version of OSes, wait for the more stable BETA! I have a feeling GNOME 3 will need more work too!

    Markus McLaughlin
    Hudson, MA

    ReplyDelete
  39. GNOME 3 / FEDORA IS BROKEN BY DESIGN

    REDHAT AND NOVELL ARE MICROSOFT WHORE COMPANIES

    THE LINUX DESKTOP HAS 1% MARKET SHARE

    MICROSOFT PROFITS $50 BILLION/YEAR

    DO THE MATH YOU MORONS

    GNOME IS A MS PROJECT

    FEDORA IS A MS PROJECT

    LINUX HAS 1% MARKET SHARE

    ReplyDelete
  40. I'm not defending GNOME SHELL(and this is where all the whining and bitching comes from) or fedora but you whiners are complete morons(specially the anonymous cowards).

    Now lets take a look at this article.

    nicu starts the article with the following words:

    "So now that the Alpha release for Fedora 15 has been declared gold, all the features are in, only polish and bug fixing are to be applied until final, is the time for previews are reviews, it was also the time for me to look at the new default desktop and understand what is coming. The executive summary of my review is: from a desktop point of view, this is a release to skip, and I am not talking about the Alpha, but about F15 altogether."

    Then he follows with this:

    "Playing with the Desktop Live image, our default download there is very little to do other than getting a feel of the desktop, practically there is no app to use, which is a shame and a disservice to fedora... the ISO is 567MB for i686, respectively 568MB for x86_64, with plenty of room left available for a few useful goodies, that would make it an useful tool."

    and this:

    "And our friends from the Desktop Team succeeded to make it feel "Fedora" as little as they could, I am not talking now about the striped background that was pushed kindly asked for, I talk about a non-blue icon set in the file manager, not-blue window titles an widgets (funny, see how the scroll bar is still blue in Firefox but not in Nautilus?), the dark theme... all those break a tradition since before Fedora was Fedora, a decision made behind closed doors by a very small group of people.
    gnome shell"

    So he turned a 180º from the initial statement and criticized the image on the exact same points he said this was not it's objective(lack of polish, lack of applications).

    I don't know what you call this where you live, but where I come from it has a name.

    He also make the following statements:

    "for example what good is Gnote now if I don't have access to my notes with 2 click any more?"

    Please elaborate because it IS possible.

    "And also learned I don't have handy access (where the panel applets are gone?) to safely umount the USB stick where I saved my screenshots."

    From nautilus. Where have you been the whole time when gnome 2 was around? Because you weren't using it, that's for sure.

    "There is a window list, there are some applets, you can put launchers on the panel, the desktop is empty, with no files or launchers, the colors are an uneven mix of light and dark, the window widgets are completely different... at least you can use Gnote and switch apps."

    Can't you even switch the panel background? Where have you been the whole time when gnome 2 was around? Because you weren't using it, that's for sure.

    You don't like gnome shell? You don't like the new nautilus sans desktop icons? You don't like the lack of maximize and minimize buttons? By all means make yourself heard, but don't go posting half baked articles on matters you clearly lack the knowledge to opine on. And if you are, do some darn research before hand.

    @Juanfgs Excuse me if I sound angry, it's just frustrating seeing how so-called power users(your words, not mine) can't even install additional software packages from repos and certainly can't change the defaults without a gui, or use google.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Nicu,

    Ok, you don't know GNOME Shell. Not a surprise. First I would like to thank you for doing all of the work, taking the screenshots and writing the article. That's a bit of work.

    I too have been downloading the Fedora 15 Alpha builds (nightly sometimes too) and playing with GNOME Shell. I like it. It grows on you. That doesn't mean it will be my desktop environment of choice. As you will recall, I'm a KDE user from before GNOME even existed.

    Saying that this is a release to skip is silly. GNOME 2.x isn't coming back. If you "skip" that means you are going to miss this release and go for the next one... or the one after that... BUT GNOME 2.x isn't coming back ever. You are going to have to get over it.

    That really isn't a Fedora thing. Unless someone picks up the GNOME 2.x code and decides to maintain it and keep it going, which I DO NOT see ever happening (people wanted that for KDE 3.x but that didn't happen)... GNOME 2.x is dead everywhere and NOT just in Fedora. So you can't skip it. And as you surely know, there is more to Fedora 15 than just the GNOME desktop.

    You recommend switching to LXDE or XFCE. Fine. Then you won't be skipping it. :)

    But anyway...

    I totally disagree with your assessment that there isn't any software on the Fedora 15 Alpha release. It is almost exactly the same package set that was in Fedora 14. I've captured the menus from both and put them side by side here:

    http://www.montanalinux.org/files/fedora14-vs-fedora15alpha-applications.png

    Only a few differences.

    Yes, there is a lot more space on the Fedora 15 Alpha disk... mainly because they have switched to a new compression type that frees up a a LOT of space. They haven't done anything on the Alpha build to use that extra space... but I'm guessing they will be adding additional software as the stabilization process progresses with each release. I'm hoping they'll be able to fit LibreOffice and GIMP on there. I'd actually love to see them totally drop the LiveCD for a LiveDVD and that'd give them even more space for additional stuff.

    So far as missing features that you wished were in GNOME Shell... I bet that many of the features will be either be added with later releases... or provided by third-party apps... like running an additional panel app that has a pager, taskbar, etc... and allow for applets. That'd solve most of your complaints.

    So far as the desktop being barren, the default desktop on Fedora 14 only had two icons on it... and one of them was for the install to hard disk and the other was one was "Computer". No big loss there. Of course you might have a lot of icons on your desk that you use.. but I don't so I'm not going to miss that. :)

    I mainly ALT+F2, type, pick from matches, enter. Since most of everything I run is already in the list, I just arrow up or down mostly and enter. That's in KDE anyway.

    I can't twist your arm to like Fedora 15 or GNOME Shell... but I hope it'll grow on you eventually... or you switch to something you like well enough. This constant complaining... well... I'd like to see more positive stuff. Ok, so you can't pull that off right now. I'll wait. :)

    ReplyDelete
  42. I find it interesting how the people advocating for GNOME 3 (or that claim they aren't, then do) are the most likely to use ad hominem attacks...

    To answer two of them:

    #1 A really good KDE distro: both OpenSuSE and SimplyMEPIS seem excellent to me. Mepis is absolutely tops at listening to users (it's where I send newbies), SuSE has bigger repos.

    #2: I'm a non-technical/non-programming user. I used Windows XP until 3 years ago, then started using Linux (GNOME & KDE 3) with almost no learning curve, as did my technophobic mom. Recently, I tried Windows 7 for the first time and while there were some improvements, there was still no real learning curve.

    Windows XP, Windows 7, GNOME 2, KDE 3, and at this point KDE 4 are amazingly alike aside from small incidental differences. They all use a customizable bar that the user places shortcut icons & navigates between open apps on, they all (as I recall) allow for icons on the desktop, all have the same buttons in the titlebar. Same with XFCE and LXDE.

    GNOME 3 is *not* similar to the others. Even though my mom finds G2 easy to use, I can *guarantee* that if I sat her down with G3, she would be utterly, totally lost. A Fedora Forums user tried it with a non-geek housemate of his, and posted the results here:
    http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=1447197&postcount=14

    I'm not sure which DE/WM I'll start using, but given I have work to do that isn't all in one window (great if you do everything from the browser and maybe a terminal or chat or two), GNOME 3 will not be it. I may switch distros as well: I didn't ditch Windows (and later Ubuntu) only to be treated like a faceless consumer that should be grateful for whatever crumbs are thrown my way.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Any Distro with GNOME 3 is gonna be skippable imho.
    I have recently switched to KDE 4.6 from Gnome which I had been using for years and liked.
    Not now though, I do not like the look of GNOME 3.
    PERIOD..!!

    ReplyDelete
  44. Reading replies on that thread I linked to, I see that there's a GNOME 2 fork in the making that might be a good alternative:
    http://exde.org

    Its "Vision" hints strongly at what prompted the devs to create it:
    "Too many Open Source desktop environments prioritize development of new features over bug fixing and polishing of existing features. While it is true that working on new features is significantly more fun than fixing bugs and most hobbyist developers are interested in enjoying their hobby, it's simply not within the EXDE vision to allow rampant feature development while current users languish with obnoxious bugs, missing essentials, or work-halting crashes and errors."

    ReplyDelete
  45. @Énio: no, this live image is a preview of what is will become Fefora 15 and there is the slight possibility FESCo will reject this feature (GNOME 3)... yeah, slight but theoretically still possible.

    @Juanfgs: amen!

    @crf: indeed, this looks like an experimental branch which should still remain an experiment, not the default

    @Scott: as i try it more, i grow hating it more and more. Of course this is a Fedora thing, since the Shell design comes from people paid by Red Hat.

    Skipping this release in the hope Xfce will get a bit better and good enough, GNOME is going the wrong way, so no hope about it.

    For a couple of releases there was talk about increasing the size of the desktop spin, to add some apps, but every time it was postponed.

    If the features *may* be added in a future release, is not a good idea to skip releases until then?

    @Xyzzy: i don't have faith in a fork driven by 1 or two individuals, it will be a second GoneME

    ReplyDelete
  46. gnome 3 looks ugly and incommodious for now

    ReplyDelete
  47. postez in romana pt ca imi dau seama ca si u esti roman. ai absoluta dreptate, din pacate. de acceasi parere sunt si eu legat de gnome shell si de unity. ce o fi in capul lor? iubesc linuxul, dar astia le strica toata functionabilitatea.. ce urmeaza? lxde-ul xfce-ul? kde suck pt mine, e incet pe laptopul meu si nici nu prea mai imi place de la marea trecere la 4.x .3.5 a fost super. Trinity e prea retro ...not an option. scuze de postarea mea in romana, stiu engleza dar totusi e limba noastra nativa:d

    ReplyDelete
  48. in romana pot sa imi permit si eu sa nu fiu "politically correct"... este un design facut de niste americani retarzi si aroganti care isi inchipuie ca ei sint buricul pamintului si detinatori ai adevarului universal, ca stiu ce e mai bine. se uita ca singurul loc in care linux a cistigat o cota mare de piata este pe telefoane mobile si concluzia de acolo este ca trebuie sa faca si desktopul la fel de retardat si pentru retardati ca sa aiba succes.

    din fericire misiunea celor de la xfce este sa pastreze un desktop traditional (sursa lor de inspiratie este vechiul cde), dar din pacate sint un proiect mic si cu resurse limitate, de asta sint cam in urma, dar ce fac ei e bine.

    ReplyDelete
  49. I see people are comparing the Gnome 3 situation with the big change that was KDE 4. But it's not the same thing.

    When KDE4 first came out, the devs warned that it was alpha quality and incomplete, and apologized for the trouble they were causing, while doing a good job of explaining why it was needed. And they did add back the missing features as fast as they could, plus some really new and cool stuff.

    With Gnome 3, the devs insist that their changes represent some sort of new and better way, despite a lot of people complaining loudly about it. Does that sound like they plan to add back what they removed?

    At least some people here seem to like those changes. The Firefox 4 GUI was dumbed down despite *everyone* who chimed in complaining about it. Because, isn't it, we're all beginners... forever? These guys should be forced to ride children's bikes with training wheels. Or strollers, if they don't bike.

    ReplyDelete
  50. And that's why I ONLY use KDE :D I believe that Fedora Community should change it's default desktop to KDE... But that's just an opinion...

    ReplyDelete
  51. I'll be moving to GNOME 3 as soon as Fedora 15 is out.

    > one single panel at the top, no icons, no files

    And yay! All that clutch is gone.

    ReplyDelete
  52. I just tried to try Gnome Shell for a week in my computer, but I wasn't able, it freezes the computer when I have open all my "workday" apps such as browsers, gimp. emesene, Virtualbox and many others... In KDE this is not happening even if I have all the apps opened and the Kwin effects enabled. I'm still using KDE, no more gnome shell for me, I always used KDE and that's the right choice. it's just stupid that a computer with 4GB of RAM freeze with Gnome shell and not in KDE :S Don't Like it...

    Just wanted to share my experience in Fedora 14 + Gnome Shell after my comment yesterday... it didn't end well.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Quoting Énio
    "@Juanfgs Excuse me if I sound angry, it's just frustrating seeing how so-called power users(your words, not mine) can't even install additional software packages from repos and certainly can't change the defaults without a gui, or use google. "

    A GUI should make easy for everyone to customize their workspace for their needs, at least in some basic aspects. If I use Fedora and GNOME is because it required minor tweaks to make it work like I needed.
    If I had the time to set everything that I want through the cli using gconf I can do it, but I wont because it's a complete waste of time and I prefer do something more enjoyable or profitable in that time.

    It's really immature from you to make such ad hominem statements in order to defend such arbitrary changes, there are many people that use Linux to work, not to show off how "geeky" they are.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Nicu,

    GNOME shell looks like a flop. I hope it improves in the future... but I really don't have much confidence on it. For the time being I have 9 more months to think about it as openSUSE is still GNOME2 based for 11.4 cycle. Then I might consider going back to Enlightenment (using still GNOME apps).

    About the 'behind close doors' and 'kindly asked', bah... nothing really new, isn't it?

    A long time ago a Brazilian band called 'Sepultura' (in english Grave) had a cool anti-system song named 'Refuse/Resist'... that's all we can do... but the real slap in the face is given by abandoning such projects...

    I mean... there's a lot of options ;)

    By the way, I do subscribe a lot of what you say, and the problem won't be only with Fedora, but with others... How can I blame Ubuntu from jumping ship and going their own way? (even if their option isn't also attractive to me).

    For the rest... there's only 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't ;)

    NM

    ReplyDelete
  55. @Nelson: I also have about 9 months ahead, F14 is going to be retired 1 month after the F16 release, this means probably December 2011, we'll see what happens in the meantime... at worst I may stay 1-2 months with an unsupported distro and then jump to something based on Xfce 2.10 (maybe F17 Alpha?)

    Actually during its life Fedora opened a lot, about a couple of years ago this reached a peak and after that we can see a pushback with some groups trying to assert control.

    Of course I know Refuse/Resist!

    ReplyDelete
  56. The guy who wrote this review is very very very biased. Gnome 3 will be there in the future and it will get better. Stop your silly reviews that distract the normal linux user. The gnome community has worked really hard and I personally like it very much. If this same thing was given by Microsoft or Apple, guys like you wouldn't stop appreciating them.

    @ To the moron who wrote in caps that Microsoft is the giant and linux has 1% share and crap crap crap : You have no business here. Use your silly Microsoft software. You deserve it.

    ReplyDelete
  57. @Elison: you are dead wrong, I wouldn't use Apple stuff even I would be paid for as for Microsoft... I switched my main desktop (the place where things get done) back with RHL 9... i am to lazzy to could, probably 8 years ago, so don't take me as one of their shills.

    ReplyDelete
  58. @nicu : Ok i get that,even I wouldn't use Apple stuff. But I really felt you were too biased in giving this review.I have used gnome shell preview in both fedora 13 and fedora 14 and I found it to be really good. It will really get better and plus all distros will eventually move to gnome 3.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I tried it in F13 and F15 and found it utter shit, voiced my opinion about that all along. It can't get better, because it would be lipstick on a pig, nothing short of a complete redesign would make it usable for me.

    Yes, eventually all distros will upgrade the GNOME packages, but some will default to KDE, some to Unity, some to Xfce... if enough users will reject the Shell, maybe a new team will get into the control of the GNOME project so we will get rid of Mccan and his clique.

    ReplyDelete
  60. It's clear, to anyone who has really taken the time to learn Gnome 3, that the overwhelming majority of you haven't.

    I've been using Gnome 3 for three days now and while it was a bit confusing at first, I've never used my mouse so little and been faster launching an manipulating apps. There is no way this won't make me more productive.

    Desktop Icons have moved to a Favorites bar located just under the Activities Menu. Applets and Widgets are hidden in the lower right corner of the screen and their notifications are nicely unified. Technically, Gnote is now only 1 click away. Selecting tiled windows from the activities menu is much faster than finding them on a taskbar. Especially with multiple instances of the same program.

    I could go on and on. In all fairness, take the time to learn it, then comment.

    ReplyDelete
  61. @Anonymous: of course i tried it before commenting and my finding are exactly the opposite as yours. To reach the favorites you have to indulge two animations and screen zooms.

    ReplyDelete
  62. @nicu

    BTW, Why do you hate those animations?

    I think we should encourage GNOME 3 for rethinking and redesigning the UI as per present n few future user's need. It's made for near future devices and user requirements.

    Linux was damn stable, damn fast and damn secured. And now it is going to be damn sexy. Why should we discourage them? Till date peoples (90% of those who use "SHIT OSes") fear of using Linux as OS because they feel is difficult to adapt, UI not being rich, complex settings and configs. But this things have been changed since lot many years. Though people are afraid of switching toward it.


    If we find some flaws, rather then criticizing and opposing the base Idea we should positively ask them to solve 'em.

    ReplyDelete
  63. @YagS: i use my computer to get my work done, i need to open apps and switch windows as fast as possible and for this the small icons on the panel are the best solution so far, watching stupid animations is wasting the time when i could do productive things and is distracting my attention... if i work on a complex image i don't want it jumping in front of my eyes.

    i don't care about those "future devices", for mobile phones there is Android, MeGoo and WebOS... Fedora is a desktop OS and is supposed to make the work on a desktop easy.

    the flaw is exactly the base idea: making a desktop act as a mobile phone.

    ReplyDelete
  64. nicu, give XFCE a shot - it's a competent developer desktop, and I found it very easy to install on F15.

    ReplyDelete
  65. @Richard: i have Xfce 4.8 on my F14 desktop from cwickert's repo, is better than GNOME 3 but weaker than GNOME 2.x

    ReplyDelete
  66. "I can't reboot my PC, only shut it down or suspend... hello! this is a desktop, ....."

    couldn't you just use:

    shutdown -r now
    to reboot your PC ?

    ReplyDelete
  67. @70rm3n70r: congratulations for missing the point! everything in a desktop environment can (should) be also possible from command line, but the GUI is here so you don't have to... as i said above, is a desktop, i reboot from command line my headless server.

    ReplyDelete
  68. Having tried out xfce4.8 last month on archbang I can recommend it to dissatisfied gnome 3 users. I love fedora but i hope they can put more effort into the f15 xfce spin than previous xfce spins which tend to be resource heavy. Hopefully someone at fedora will release a not so bloated xfce spin that users can customize themselves.

    ReplyDelete
  69. I moved to LXDE two Fedora releases ago and haven't looked back...

    ReplyDelete
  70. Just tried Fedora 15 Alpha and noticed that there is lack of a taskbar.

    E.g in Firefox, the user may not consciously knows that he/she had other windows popped open by sites.

    This is bad :(

    ReplyDelete
  71. Frankly, this sounds like a pretty useless review.

    1) Its a Beta.
    2) Why the hell is the reviewer whinging about the programs included IN AN ALPHA VERSION! Seriously? It's a liveCD used by most people for installation.
    3) It doesn't even sound like he installed it, or used it longer than 10 minutes.

    Sorry, but I don't think he gave it a proper chance...

    ReplyDelete
  72. @Anonymous: did you read the title? is a preview...

    and you are right, is so bad, i could not endure using it for more than 10 minutes, is not worth the effort.

    however, i follow its development for over a year and not the first time installing a snapshoot, so i knew pretty much what to expect

    ReplyDelete
  73. I've been using Fedora 15 beta since it came out now, and I have to say for the first time a fedora distro recognized my wireless adapter without any headache and the 3D on my nvidia was finally not a problem either. :)

    I had a lot of trouble with the latest fedora 14 kernel on my system, but so far 15 has run like a top!

    That being said, I don't understand the power user being hung up by the lack of min/max buttons...really??? A power user who can't double click the title bar??? All of the changes like that that people are complaining about are all trivial in my mind because they didn't take away functionality, they just changed things up a bit. There will be some learning involved, a little getting used to things, but it doesn't take long. Gnome 3 has promise.

    What I don't like about it is that there are less options for the user to configure the layout. The default layout tends to slow me down. However there are a number of keyboard shortcuts that help you to get around quickly...

    All in all, it is still very early in its life, give it a chance and I think it will end up being a nice desktop/distro...

    ReplyDelete
  74. Tested it. Gnome 3 sucks. It's a piece of shit. Now what? XFCE? LXDE? Could be. KDE? No. There are only two options: MacOS and Windows. I used to think that Linux was about flexibility. I am frustrated.

    ReplyDelete
  75. @nicu

    I've installed Fedora 15 Alpha on my spare laptop and tried to use Gnome-hell as my main desktop on it. Could not handle it.

    I am not a novice user nor a power user. I work on the computer and need desktop environment to help me to achieve my goals - gnome-hell makes it difficult.

    - no easy access to files - no desktop icons, no "Places" menu, nothing.

    - access to applications - Application menu provided easy and quick access, gnome-hell forces me to either type application's name, or click through iphone-like application mess.

    - applets - they were providing me with useful information about my computer and not only about my computer, they were providing extra functions - ie. inhibit applet, everybody could find something useful.

    - themes and customisation - black panels? and whitish windows? who came with such a stupid idea? it's ugly, it hurts my eyes, and it's difficult to read (thanks to ugly font-rendering, as gnome-hell's panel doesn't obey to font rendering settings).

    - performance - gnome 2.x, with compiz, applets and etc. was rapid fast, gnome-hell is terrible slow

    - panel - I really liked to see open applications at the bottom panel, I don't find attractive that "overview" - compiz had similar plugin, that was the very first thing I used to switch off.

    Best solution for now - switch to fallback mode and use it with compiz - it works. Using gnome-tweak-tool switch on desktop icons, menu icons, button icons and restore missing buttons. many useful applets are missing, yet this way you can have something similar to Gnome 2.x experience and avoid gnome-hell's madness.

    Great art btw, shame I haven't seen it earlier.

    ReplyDelete
  76. in the end you get what you pay for..... oh, right... fucking hippies

    ReplyDelete
  77. Haven't read all of the comments, but what kind of review is this? "I used Gnome 3 for 5 minutes and I didn't find what I used to have. Also the background is not blue, so it's a piece of crap". Really, are you talking seriously? Before writing any meaningful review you should use it AT LEAST for a month.

    ReplyDelete
  78. @nico: is not a review but a preview and the gist of it is - that is not a software i would be able to use more that 5 minutes, is a total productivity killer. i have better things to to than waste my time with crappy desktop systems bases on flawed design concepts.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Most of your comments are well put, and pin-point some serious mistakes which are being made by the new linux UI's.

    I have to say that after all the years of watching the linux desktops become user-friendly (and consistently making very good use of MOST distros over the years), and now having both ubuntu and fedora change from their normal desktop environments, and with kde becoming more unstable over different configurations... it's time to give up and just 'go mac'.

    I'll still load the linux distros in virtual machines, but I'll probably opt for XFCE or FluxBox desktops, or gnome 2.3 like on ubuntu 10.10.

    After trying out GNOME 3.0 and Ubuntu's Unity, I just can't deal with the instability and this level of change any more.

    Desktop use and configuration is such a personal experience, and stability is a necessity for everyone on a daily basis... so I'm jumping ship and opting for hardware and software that're (supposed to be) moulded for each other. Bye bye linux distros, in general, hello OS X.

    Please, don't hate me for it!

    ReplyDelete
  80. @nicu: I guess it really depends what your workflow is. Minimizing windows is not in my workflow under Linux, I've always used to move them between desktops (using ALT+1,2,3,4) and use ALT+TAB if I had multiple windows in the same desktop, so no minimize (and no mouse) involved at all.

    Anyway, if you are trying to convince people that a completely new interface is useless you really should try it for more than 5 minutes, because you're not used to it so it's absolutely normal to be slow at the beginning. Heck, you put me in front of MacOSX and I start swearing in unknown languages because I don't find things. It's not because MacOS is a piece of crap (although I don't like it too much either) but because I'm not used to it.

    I find the workflow in GNOME3 very fast, as I can do everything with the keyboard or, if I want, with mouse gestures (I prefer the keyboard). Sure, it's DIFFERENT, that's clear. But, and that's the beauty of Linux, there are so many other desktop manager to choose from if you don't like GNOME3. Fedora may come with that, but you're not in any way forced to use it so, stop complaining and install XFCE or KDE or whatever you like! :)

    ReplyDelete
  81. I use a desktop with a large display and multiple overlapping windows with fast-switching from one to another... for this you need a proper desktop system, not a mobile phone one.

    ReplyDelete
  82. I'm going to put my head above the parapet here and say that I really like GNOME 3/F15. I'm generally anti-bloat, but once I got used to the user experience on F15 I realised I could be really productive.

    One thing that does irk is the speed of yum - crikey that's slow (the last time I used fedora was F9). On my desktop I have Crunchbang (debian+openbox), and I've been testing F15 on my laptop. I like. There, I said it!

    ReplyDelete
  83. Call me Ish... sravi.
    Got here while trying to figure out HOW to add my freshly compiled Blender3D Cycles to some Activities, Favorites, Places or any other corner on as i assumed given to my ownership Desktop... :)
    ... did i mention that i was eager to try out F15 and G3 after F14, even got a new HD for that reason, since GBs on old were low?
    Pretty soon found out that there's that rodent's doubleclick to HIDE any active applications window tho still feels uncomfortable to look for it clicking on Activities or using That Flag key. Does it feel ok for you to find exact one terminal amongst say 5 similar ones?
    As to ergonomics. Or tree like stuff. So you move left upper corner, click Activities; get choice Windows & Applications, then say you want Applications... click...
    Now the fun part - all my work is gone, i'm left with screenfull of one might say nice icons and on FAR right there's who could imagine - menu, giving ability to limit default choice ALL. I simply dont get this.
    And it wont improve my productivity either. It distracts me more than some links or icons of current work on MY Desktop.

    Have you had a recent look into cmake?

    From /usr/share/cmake/Modules/FindPythonInterp.cmake
    ...
    foreach(_CURRENT_VERSION ${_Python_VERSIONS})
    set(_Python_NAMES python${_CURRENT_VERSION})
    if(WIN32)
    list(APPEND _Python_NAMES python)
    endif()
    find_program(PYTHON_EXECUTABLE
    NAMES ${_Python_NAMES}
    PATHS [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Python\\PythonCore\\${_CURRENT_VERSION}\\InstallPath]
    )
    endforeach()
    ...

    HKLM\SOFTWARE... hmmm ... strangely familiar... And imho not related to WIN32 since IF is closed...

    @megaloman

    [root@hme01 sravi]# gnome-tweak-tool
    bash: gnome-tweak-tool: command not found...
    Install package 'gnome-tweak-tool' to provide command 'gnome-tweak-tool'? [N/y]
    * Waiting in queue..
    * Running..
    * Resolving dependencies..
    * Waiting in queue..
    * Resolving dependencies..
    * Downloading packages..
    * Testing changes..
    * Installing packages..
    * Scanning applications..
    g_dbus_connection_real_closed: Remote peer vanished with error: Underlying GIOStream returned 0 bytes on an async read (g-io-error-quark, 0). Exiting.

    @Elison
    I understand Capslocked writing (rude, agreed) as an warning if such a user experience will prevail in 1% it will never be able to get more % ...

    Well, guess you get my overall mood. So i'm gonna vanish too.

    Thanks for [p]review and interesting comments!
    Exiting.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Yea I just wanted to add that "Fedora devs" are technically not the ones writing gnome 3. It's the gnome devs, so blame "gnome" not "fedora" there are many fedora developers that have nothing to do with gnome 3. This isn't Microsoft/Windows or Apple/OSX where it's one monolithic project. It's a bunch of individual projects that Fedora packages and integrates into one experience.

    ReplyDelete
  85. @AhmedG.: actually, most of the people driving GNOME 3 are Red Hat employees. And Fedora is "guilty" for accepting this piece of crap as its default.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Haven't tried Gnome 3, will download it this weekend. From the looks of it, I think it will be better than 2 or unity (tried it on 10.10). For those not sold, Mint is the answer. IMHO still the best distro I've used.

    ReplyDelete
  87. Don't bother downloading Fedora 15. What a turd. Nothing works right. Evolution keeps crashing. Flash finally installed afte three tries. Brasero keeps spinning like a roulette wheel. OMG. I would be embarrassed for Fedora. Can anyone suggest a Gnome 3 OS that is usuable?

    ReplyDelete
  88. @Anonymous: that isn't possible, since the GNOME 3 part is the one not usable and all other distros are still avoiding it.

    ReplyDelete
  89. F15 is the worst case of fail I've ever "upgraded" too. Everything breaks - video, services, window managers, wireless, backups... Feels like a playaround alpha. How can they release crap like this, and more importantly, how do I downgrade to sweet F14?

    ReplyDelete
  90. I've been using ubuntu 11.04 (since the alfa, then beta..) for a while and swapped to fedora 15 beta about two weeks ago (beta at that time). I couldn't be happier, the dynamic desktop creation and the speed are two of the best aspects of Gnome 3, I've also created a custom theme based on the base one and so far so good. The new paradigm may be something hard to digest at first, but after that chock, it's really amazing...
    I know most of you like widgets and slow desktop managers, so it's definatly not for everyone :)

    ReplyDelete
  91. I have used Linux since 1994. I could not figure that I would go back to Microsoft desktop because I do not see future on Linux.

    Linux is a good server OS because IBM et al spent a lot of $$$ on it. But at the desktop, forget it.

    ReplyDelete
  92. I've used gnome shell in earlier fedora incarnations and it was promising. It felt fast and I didn't mind the lack of features because there was no release date in sight, thus with plenty of time of improvement.

    I'm typing from gnome 3 right now, and it's identical to what I tested earlier except that it's slower, and lacks the maximize / minimize buttons.

    So I'm probably going to switch back to awesome or enlightenment on the machine I already upgraded / downgraded.

    ReplyDelete
  93. This is sad. I use my computer for work. Period. But for work, there's no time to lose.

    With Gnome2, it was perfect. A bar at the top, where you can click twice for an app, or slide one of them to the top bar(pin it there), and then use them with one click.

    At the bottom, a list of currently running software.

    And the background, that's the desktop. Like my real desk. I can put folders there, documents, whatever I need to use right away. I can hide all my running software with one click, then glance at all the documents I have on the desktop, so figure out which ones I need to produce, and so on.

    Now, there doesn't seem to be any way to do any of this.

    Or maybe there is, but you have to scramble through forums to figure it out. There isn't even some good documentation, or a cheat sheet.

    You can pin an app to the “activity board”, but those icons are huge. And you have to click to access that activities bar, whearas before it was right there on the top bar. And the new top bar uses the same space as the old one, so I don’t get how this is more efficient.

    Also, the desktop feature is a big deal. Opening Nautilus, and browsing around, is fine for files that are not needed daily. But for daily documents, or works in progress, it should be readilly available. It’s like a desk. You put the things you’re working on right now on your desk, and the stuff you don’t need in a file cabinet.

    I work for a very modern corporation. We’re paperless, and always strive for efficiency and optimisation of business processes. But at the end of a day, I still have a chair and a desk. Not because I’m afraid of change, but because that’s the best way to work.

    ReplyDelete
  94. @Fedora:

    BITE ME ! :D you suck :D

    ReplyDelete
  95. Switched from Ubuntu Natty (Unity) to Fedora 15 (Gnome3)
    And loving Gnome3......very smooth and no crashes.

    ReplyDelete
  96. I just don't like it... The Gnome 3.0 changes are not the right changes I was looking for, they need to roll back to the menu driven desktop or a hybrid. Same with KDE, they lost me long time ago. If you use remote desktop you get a black screen for a while until it releases. Even with Classic with Compiz leave too much from the new layout. Still not ready from prime time. No crashes though, just not sure where gnome 3.0 is going to.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Gnome 3.0 slow keyboard and mouse input type a character wait 5 seconds to see it.. Mouse click orientation also slower than molasses. All this on and AMD64 8 gigs as a Virtual-box guest. If I switch to KDE keyboard and moue works fine. So it is not Virtual-box or Fedora 15 that is the problem....

    ReplyDelete
  98. F15 + KDE/GNOME 3 is masterpiece OF SHIT

    ReplyDelete
  99. ...As to ergonomics. Or tree like stuff. So you move left upper corner, click Activities; get choice Windows & Applications, then say you want Applications... click...

    It took me time to get to the point - it perfectly fits if u have touchscreen in ur hands! Let's move all to tablets!

    Well, on April (used to be Alpha) when i installed it it would be quite snappy even on 1Gb RAM... Not anymore, takes some 2 secs while i'm able to click on this Windows / Applications stuff.

    in case if u manage to get to something like desktop back, remember to rightclick on Computer and see Properties... Fun! Still one programmed and designed this!

    ReplyDelete
  100. Just dropped in to say that I am really enjoying GNOME Shell! It has a desktop debugger, uses Gjs, and you can create custom styles using CSS! This desktop is a web developer's wildest dream: full-on access to the desktop using standard web technologies! If you want to change the dark colors which F15 uses, you can simply edit the theme. You can create multiple themes, and use theme-switcher (which adds a tab to the Activities view) to switch among them. You can even create your own quick-access app (i.e. gnote) in javascript!
    However, i do admit at first, it seemed too different, but that is what I have been looking for in my Linux distro - a break from traditional WIMPy paradigms. I think GNOME 3 is pioneering the way for a complete re-thinking of how we use our PCs.

    ReplyDelete
  101. I agree with you on every point. I have no idea what sort of drugs Gnome developers are on, but unless they go into rehab, I will stick to my F14+Gnome2.x setup.

    ReplyDelete
  102. I've used Fedora from ages. I upgraded to Fedora 15 and the bullshit of Gnome 3. In two weeks I downgraded to Fedora 14 and now with the new Fedora 16 and no option to Gnome 2.x- I thing that Gnome 3.2 will be the same crap- I will downgrade to Windows 7

    ReplyDelete
  103. i think i will skip F16 too, stick with it even the supports end and make a decision around F17 beta

    ReplyDelete